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--- builds:alternators [2018/07/21 22:28]
poleguy
+++ builds:alternators [2018/07/22 16:25] (current)
poleguy
@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
   - Get an alternator from a junkyard (or pay for a new one on ebay, rockauto.com, etc.)
  (If anyone has pictures/model numbers/car models and years, please contribute here.)
+[[https://alternatorparts.com/cs130-cs130d-series-alternators.html|CS130D]]
 Phantom 48 used a GM alternator.
 Phantom ICT uses a bigger one.
   - Remove the regulator. (Unbolt)
+{{:builds:img_20160917_110715278.jpg?200|}}
   - Solder some RC style bullet connectors on to the three windings.
+{{:builds:img_20160917_101110505.jpg?200|}}
   - Solder wires onto the contacts for the brushes to drive the field windings.
-  - Isolate the brushes from the case with a nylon washer.
+{{:builds:img_20160917_112614789.jpg?200|}}
+  - Isolate the brushes from the case with nylon washers, bolts, or by clipping the metal so it doesn't touch.
+{{:builds:img_20160917_114709251.jpg?200|}}
+  - Reassemble
+{{:builds:img_20160917_114703149.jpg?200|}}
   - Get a controller.[[https://ebay.com/itm/48V-DC-1500W-Brushless-Motor-Controller-For-E-bike-Scooter-Electric-Bicycle-US/252876629480?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649|1500W]]
   - Get a field drive (Constant Current). [[https://ebay.com/itm/172787419292?ul_noapp=true|
@@ Line 22: / Line 29: @@
   * Field strengthening. Some cars do this. They have a button that increases the current to the field. The button basically puts more current into the field so that you have more torque to start from a stop (at the start of the race, etc.
-====== Notes from Facebook group discussion ======
+====== Notes from Facebook group discussions ======
@@ Line 126: / Line 133: @@
 Also, belt drive works great, but maybe not so well with sensorless controllers, because there is no slop (from a chain) so the motor controller has trouble starting with the full load applied immediately as it can't figure out it's position without drawing too much current.
+---
+Rick Anderson
+September 29, 2015
+Cartastrophe used alternators for motors. Same with the FuVette. I'm starting to work on the custom controls. From what I remember both Cartastrophe and Phantom 48 have some documentation on doing that. Anyone know where it is? Thanks
+Jaimy Juliano They are Delco CS130D or some derivative. 100A or 110A rated, don't remember.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano We also did win a race or two on some 45 Amp Hitachi ones that where for a 1984 Isuzu trooper or some such thing. They worked but got really hot and had a low top speed. Also worth mentioning that I tried to get external hall sensors to work and our Kelly controllers where just not having any of that.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson We used the CS120D's because they are ubiquitous. Id love to build a dyno and try a few different models to see if there is much difference.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano We might have 120s on cartastrophy too honestly. I'm not sure. I know for a fact that the Mark III has the 130s and I know that the bearings are the same on all of them. The housings are slightly different though.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson no.. you were right... I misstyped
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano Ohhhh, LOL!
+Manage
+--
+July 20, 2015
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis Thank you for posting this. I have been tied up with school work and work work lately. But wanted to get back to this.
+Manage
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis was this the halls you use? http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail...
+Manage
+Like
+ · Reply · 2y
+Grayslake Garage - Cartastrophe
+Grayslake Garage - Cartastrophe I'll have to check when I get home
+Manage
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis thank you
+Manage
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Grayslake Garage - Cartastrophe
+Grayslake Garage - Cartastrophe I have used both Digi-Key PN 480-5412-ND and PN AH3761-PG-ADICT-ND.
+Manage
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis wow much smaller than what i had
+Manage
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Pole Guy
+Write a reply...
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis Thank you for the help. Here is attempt 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puzYAYJDhcY
+Manage
+YOUTUBE.COM
+Second Try Alternator as a motor
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis can you offer some advice on phasing this thing?
+Manage
+LikeShow more reactions · Reply · 2y
+Travis Davis
+Travis Davis nevermind found it 1.5k ohm on the windings dont work. lol
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan Jon Halverson i think we miiiight have talked about this before, but does your custom controller also vary the field current to get different torque characteristics?
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson The hardware was designed to do that, yes. We tried a few simple tests that didn't prove very fruitful. Specifically we tried dropping the field to increase top speed. We never did get any code written to modulate on the fly however. Or do anything …See More
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Our field driver has an isolated input for PWM to Current
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Pole Guy
+Write a reply...
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan i believe once someone gets field current modulation down, alternators will be some kind of apex of optimization for the current PRS design space.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Hide 11 Replies
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson We only scratched the surface
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan does this mean i need to try
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Ill send you a schematic for a nice easy isolated PWM to Current switching supply.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan define "pwm-to-current"... this is distinct from a closed loop current control (with a current sensor or shunt) that's modulating pwm%?
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson PWM input is percentage of output current from 0 to some set maximum. Its just an easy way to adjust it from the controller. The switching supply is self oscillating switching converter. There is a shunt fed back to a comparator with a reference voltage from the PWM input. Its easier to look at the schematic
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan such hardcore
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan wow analog
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan very current
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano We have had some success with messing with the field current. We have an "11" button that boosts the current to the field for more torque on take off. It does work but I honestly think it has something to do with keeping the Kellys from freaking out. Ours is a low side switch with PWM controlled by a little Arduino board with a (probably completely unnecessary) PID loop. Way less legit than what Jon has done.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y · Edited
+Rick Anderson
+Rick Anderson Jon Halverson I'd be happy to check out the schematic
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Can someone offer to post it to the Wiki maybe? My company web nanny has deemed that website to be dangerous for me to visit. msg me an email address.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Pole Guy
+Write a reply...
+Bill Winans
+Bill Winans What do you mean by "saturation" and how do you know what that limit is? More juice is ALWAYS good, right?  ;)
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan basically for most materials there's a point where no matter how much magnetizing force (amps * wire turns) you push into it, the field won't get stronger. when Jon said "just below the knee" he means just below the point in the material's magnetizing curve where it stops being much more magnetic.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/electrom.../mag18.gif...
+Manage
+ELECTRONICS-TUTORIALS.WS
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Bill Winans
+Bill Winans Makes sense! So why would you want to vary the field strength instead of just maxing it out for the duration of the run?
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan the field strength is one component of determining the Kt (torque constant) of the motor. for the same motor, less field = faster with less torque.
+so the idea is, max out the field strength for acceleration, then slowly taper it off for top speed.
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+Bill Winans
+Bill Winans Ok, I didn't realize it was a tradeoff of torque to speed when managing the field. Thanks!
+Manage
+Like · Reply · 2y
+---
+Travis Davis
+January 14, 2017
+https://youtu.be/boYqALbrv6s
+Patrick Becker
+Admin · August 11, 2015
+I noticed a few teams using alternators for drive motors. Wondering if anyone could point me to a resource that explains that a bit more?
+Comments
+Like
+Comment
+Comments
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano It's not as complicated as you might think.
+Step one: Unsolder the 3 phase winding terminals and Rip off all the rectifier electronics.
+Step 2: Add wires to the 3 phase winding leads.
+Step 3: Add wires to the brush terminals for the field windings. Apply around 3A of current to the field terminals. Alternators (most of them) don't have magnets, they have field coils on the rotor. The current can be tuned for better performance once everything is working.
+DONE: As long as there is current on the field, You now have a 3 phase brushless motor. All resources available on BLDC motors apply from that point on.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano Oh, also. To start with just get a cheap Chinese sensorless controller online. Once things are working you can get "fancy"
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Yep!
+Manage
+y · Like
+--
+Charles Guan
+July 23, 2015
+last minute addition - an "anti-fuck" diode, pointed against battery voltage, for allowing regeneration current to pass back through in case the fuse blows.
+No automatic alt text available.
+{{:builds:11742720_10153519485478928_2088746989278637422_n.jpg?200|}}
+Comments
+Like
+Comment
+Comments
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan this idea brought to you last year some time by Phantom, i think. someone talked to me about it anyway
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Highly recommended. It only took us a couple FET replacements to figure out what was happening.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Eli Richter
+Eli Richter Is this needed only if you're using regen braking?
+Manage
+y · Like
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan like cool kids
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano Jon, where you blowing FETs with the field current cut too? Or with field still powered outside of the fuse? We run our field through the fuse so I figured I was ~safe. Never had any problems until we had all the problems in KC so now you got me wondering.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Eli Richter Its an issue for us if you drop the throttle after the fuse blows because the controller still has some juice and sees you tell it to regen. Problem is there is no where for the regen current to go, so the voltage increases (ala switching boost converter) until the FETs blow. The diode allows the regen current back into the battery.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Jaimy Juliano Its a problem either way since the regen charges the caps at the controller and keeps everything up and running.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Eli Richter
+Eli Richter Jon Halverson We don't have regenerative braking on our car, it's just a simple Alltrax axe controller.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano I think i get it. I didn't think the residual magnetism on the rotor after field current was cut would be enough to generate any significant voltage. I was thinking "alternator" or "generator" not "big f-ing inductor in a big f-ing boost converter". Correct?
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Field current doesn't ever really stop since the regen keeps the supply caps post fuse charged up. up too much is the problem
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jaimy Juliano
+Jaimy Juliano Got it
+Manage
+y · Like
+====== Batteries ======
+Mike Reilly
+July 6, 2015
+Next short survey: what's your choice of battery? The brand and model would be very appreciated.
+Comments
+Like
+Comment
+Comments
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Phantom48 uses 12S2P LiFePo packs made with 8 Ahr cells from Headway. The older discontinued power cell, thus the closeout deal when we bought them. We add a 250A fast blow fuse internally to protect the cells from a dead short.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Tanju Bayramoglu
+Tanju Bayramoglu currently running 3x 35Ah SLAs from Harbor Freight's "solar panel department", they're big and heavy. hoping to upgrade in the coming years.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Randy Farmer
+Randy Farmer I have two packs made with 3x18ah UPS batteries, and one pack that are very similarly sized Wal Mart special AGM 3x18ah ATV batteries.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Scott Rizzo
+Scott Rizzo 2 12vx35Ahr simular to Tanju Bayramoglu. Would love to go to LiFePo but dont have the budget. Need a deal like Jon Halverson found.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Scott Rizzo, It was the 38120P that we found for $9 each. There are deals like that around, but you gotta watch for them. A123 pouches are what we really wanted to build with, but the market on them at the time was not good. Our packs are $216 each,…See More
+Manage
+y · Like
+Scott Rizzo
+Scott Rizzo I've seen the video of the snowblower and mower. Very cool use what you have learned with the car.
+Manage
+y · Edited · Like
+Scott Rizzo
+Scott Rizzo I think in the off season I am going to experiment with the alternator as motor power system. I could remove a lot of weight over my 40+ lb motor and maybe extend the battery run time
+Manage
+y · Edited · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson The motors on the blower and mower are nice DC motors. we would have loved to use them for P48, but determined early on they were no way legal to run based on the budget rules. Using alternators was the alternative, and felt like an appropriate chall…See More
+Manage
+y · Like
+Scott Rizzo
+Scott Rizzo If you have some time in Detroit I would like to pick your brain a little on the alt conversion. I have been doing some research but any info you are willing to share would be appreciated. I am sure I will be starting with off the shelf parts just to get it running
+Manage
+y · Like
+Chris Lee
+Chris LeeChris and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for Powerwheels Racers for Adults. Ditto, I'd love to hear about your alternator setup.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson More than happy to. Get a couple of these to start: http://www.ebay.com/.../36V-800W.../160806898126.... Then you need to find/make something that will put around 3A through the field winding. We raced 1.5 seasons like that, and still bring them to every race just in case.
+Manage
+EBAY.COM
+V 800W Brushless E-bike& Scooter Controller With Hall
+y · Like
+Randy Farmer
+Randy Farmer Are you using one of these new fancy brushless alternators, or a good old fashioned one?
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson I didn't know there was such a thing as a brushless alternator. I forget the model number on ours, but its a stock 90's GM alternator. One has "92 Lumina" written on it. There are pics around. The field magnetizing current technically flows through brushes, but its low current and not commutating so technically its still considered a "brushless" motor. Update: CS130D is the alternator model.
+Manage
+y · Edited · Like
+Scott Rizzo
+Scott Rizzo Looked up the part on eBay. Is it possible to run on 24volts or does it need to be 36? My battery packs are 24v now and I am not sure I could fit an additional battery in the car
+Manage
+y · Edited · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Charles Guan has some tear down info you should read. Look up Jasontroller.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Charles Guan
+Charles Guan we couldn't get my van's alternators to produce torque worth shit. must be a "big muscular U.S. mancar with big muscular U.S. man-ternator" thing
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson We started with static torque tests to see what current ranges worked best. We fed one phase and used a torque wrench to see what it took to break it over. We were able to see the field saturate, but never did find the limit on motor current. At 150A its hard to do a stalled test without smoke coming out.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson Charles Guan are you sure your field winding was working right? The alts will spin just on residual magnetism, but really low torque.
+Manage
+y · Like
+Randy Farmer
+Randy Farmer So how well do the run at 80/60/40 amps? I'm intrigued now
+Manage
+y · Like
+Jon Halverson
+Jon Halverson this thread is getting long... We won a stack of medals with two china controllers limited to 30A each. That ended up being just about perfect for the 40A fuse. That's 30A battery current., motor current can be much higher. With our own controller design we have more control over things, but the 40A fuse keeps it from being a huge advantage. When the power into the system is limited like it is, a fast car has to be an efficient car. We really need to build a dyno...e
+Manage
+y · Like
+Mike Reilly
+Mike Reilly Thanks again folks, more short questions to come.
+Manage
+y · Like
 ====== Greyslake garage, Hall Install ======
@@ Line 134: / Line 524: @@
 July 20, 2015 ·
 I just went through the process of installing Halls in the MK III alternator. Since a lot of people in KC asked about installing Hall sensors, I thought I would share a photo guide. I should do an instructable, but if I never get a round to it, then the info never gets out. So, here ya go.
+{{:builds:11217958_992782777448027_1915410347503301736_n.jpg?200|}}
   - Step 1: Grind out some "Hall holes™" in the stator with a Dremel and a carbide burr. Try to find slots that don't have windings to close to the surface. If you can't, just get another alternator (or the front half and stator from one) they are like $10. On the MK III (pictured) I have a Franken-nator because I had a front half that had room for sensors and a different back half that had good brushes and a new bearing.
@@ Line 147: / Line 539: @@
 Jon Halverson
 Jon Halverson likely just a little extra heat. probably not a big deal, but this is racing!
+{{:builds:11175023_992782800781358_1797412652500358513_n.jpg?200|}}
   - Step 2: Add some small "whiskers" to the sensors. I use some enamel coated wire.
+{{:builds:11207365_992782824114689_3693015183418619707_n.jpg?200|}}
   - Step 3: Insulate solder connections (I used a little Kapton tape, but other things work) and glue into place with some super glue.
+{{:builds:11709578_992782894114682_4422581096955034576_n.jpg?200|}}
   - Step 4: Slather the things in "red insulating varnish" (search McMaster).
-  - Step 5: Join the 3 VDD wires together. Join the 3 GND wires together. Wire and shrink tube those and the 3 OUT leads to the wires that will exit the alternator. Tidy it all up and put the thing back together.
+{{:builds:11012785_992782840781354_8752464852118250029_n.jpg?200|}}
+  - Step 5: Join the 3 VDD wires together. Join the 3 GND wires together. Wire and shrink tube those and the 3 OUT leads to the wires that will exit the alternator. Tidy it all up and put the thing back together.
+  - Step 6: Profit.

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